Innsmouth Book Club
Hosted by Rob Poyton and Tim Mendees, the Innsmouth Book Club is a fortnightly podcast devoted to Lovecraftian fiction and cosmic horror in general.
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Innsmouth Book Club
IBC129 Trevor Kennedy
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Join us in the Gilman Hotel, where we chat to author, editor and presenter Trevor Kennedy. We talk Phantasmagoria magazine, Dave Carson, the Golden Age of horror, indie film, martial arts, comedy and horror, daleks, accents, and CGI. Plus the return of Dagon's Sack!
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SPEAKER_00Greetings, travellers, and welcome to episode 129 of the Innsmouth Book Club Podcast. As you can see, we've brought you to the fading splendour of the Gilman House Hotel, because today we are going to be joined by a very esteemed guest. I'm one of your hosts, Tim Mendys.
SPEAKER_01And I'm the other one, Rob Poyton. But uh before we tread the stairs up to room 428, I believe you've been out gigging, sir. You've got some more gigs coming up.
SPEAKER_00Indeed, yeah, I've got some coming up at the beginning of August. We'll be heading up to Blackpool and Manchester. Um we'll be hitting Blackpool on the 7th and Manchester on the 8th, Friday and Saturday. Uh yeah, we're doing a headline slot in Manchester with Chaos Bleak and St. Lucifer in support. And on the Friday, we're supporting X Fiend, which is an offshoot of Alien Sex Fiend, which I'm incredibly excited about. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's cool. And you're back to the motherland as well, heading back north.
SPEAKER_00Indeed. Oh yeah, down up to Manchester, a bit of a homecoming to my basis to mank as well. So that's gonna be uh it's gonna be a bit of a party, I think. Yeah, lovely, lovely.
SPEAKER_01I've been out and about in a little bit. I I spent the weekend at a local event called Continuum at Cranfield, just outside of Bedford, which was a four-day gaming convention. So I had lots of fun there. I put on a We Want the Gold Innsmouth game, which uh went very well. There's some photos up on the website now for that. And I was chatting to various people, including Chaossium, who have confirmed that they're gonna be at the Innsmouth Literary Festival September the 19th, coming up. Other gaming stuff we've got going on there, we've confirmed Hobby High of the local shop. Uh Robin there is put on a game that you told me involves Eldritch Vegetables. I know nothing more than that. I'm gonna have to give him a copy of my book, Miracle Growth. Oh, yes, of course. Oh, yeah, yeah, there we go. Oh, and speaking of books, I finally regular listeners will know for about three years I've been finishing my book Queen of the Fence. Well, it's finally done, and um it's off to the prints out later this week. So hopefully we'll we're looking at a release for a few weeks' time. That is uh sequel to Robbie Howard's Worms of the Earth. It's the first in a trilogy of novellas set in Roman Britain. More will be revealed in due course. That's the latest news is Tom Weatherweather. Let's go upstairs. And here we are, room 428. Let's give a big insmouth welcome to today's guest, author, editor, presenter, Trevor Kennedy. Hey Trevor, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_03Thanks, guys. Um, thank you very much for inviting me on. And it's um great to be here in sunny Innsmouth, you know, where the weather is always good and the locals are super friendly, like yourselves.
SPEAKER_01They're so friendly you don't want to leave, right? That's the problem. Yeah, that's how they get you. I'll tell you is this your first visit in Trevor or have you been to Innsmouth before?
SPEAKER_03Well, I have visited Innsmouth um several times in terms of um the stories, but yes, coming coming from Northern Ireland, um, there are quite a few towns about Northern Ireland that are not unlike Innsmouth, so I'll not mention them in case some of the locals come look at me with pitchforks and little deep ones, you know. But um, yeah, no, it's great to be here. So as uh Dab, thanks guys, and you know, it's always nice to be in Ensmouth, you know. I'll send a postcard to my friends and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Maybe the last contact deliver here from me, but you you need to do that Lovecraft thing of they are at the door. Oh dot dot dot just to finish. So we always like with our guests to get something of their origin story, I suppose you call it. So, how did you first get into horror in general and then into uh Lovecraft in particular?
SPEAKER_03Yes, um, well, I suppose as a kid, as a very small kid, you know, aged around three or four, I essentially um started reading and you know, watching TV shows and films and stuff, and I was just instantly attracted to horror and science fiction and fantasy and anything weird and wacky and that sort of thing. So from a very young age, I was probably reading a lot of age inappropriate stuff along with watching um the same sort of stuff. You know, I grew up with things like you know, the hammer films, um, films like The Omen, stuff like that. As I progressed through sort of um primary school, I would have got into things like the Freddie Krueger films, DS and Fourties, Hellraiser, of course, The Evil Dead, all those sorts of things. But from a very young age, um, I would have been reading things like um Final Fantasy game books, which I was a huge fan of uh back as a kid, uh fantasy tales, stuff like that then around maybe 11-12. I started progressing into more uh adult horror. Obviously, fantasy tales would have been adult horror as well. But um, I would have been reading things like you know, Stephen King and you know, all those sorts of things, and um, and I would say um HP Lovecraft as well, of course, and um MR James. But actually, um I first got into HP Lovecraft um through not actually his stories, but um Lovecraftian artwork. My cousin is um Dave Carson, who is the yes, who is I'm actually wearing a t-shirt now with one of his Lovecraft designs on.
SPEAKER_01So, yes. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_03So back um in primary school, I um I knew Dave was a horror illustrator, and um, I was actually blown away when I discovered that he had illustrated the Final Fantasy game book beneath Nightmark Castle. So my mum had an advantage and he was living in England, we were still in Belfast, still am. But um, so what happened um was my mum had an old address for him in London. Um so I sent a letter just in the odd chance he still lived there. And um about a week later, this parcel arrived with uh loads of artworks, obviously an accompanying letter, and I was just as a kid, I was blown away. But it was so it was Dave that first got me into Lovecraft through his artwork. And I remember he used to send me over t-shirts and stuff, and uh I remember one in particular, a Cthulhu t-shirt. And I used to get made fun of by the other kids in the area who would say, Oh, no, there he is, Cthulhu, you know, that sort of thing. No, no, no, no, that's why it would say, you know, yeah, as as kids sort of um get on, you know, that sort of thing. But I was very proud and I was super proud. Then obviously I then progressed on to um reading Lovecraft and you know, people like MR James and um you know stuff like that, and I just progressed, and I've never really um you know stopped reading those sorts of things, and yeah. Uh I'm still I still am to this very day, and uh back then I would have um also dabbled with a bit of writing and stuff, all very juvenile stuff, you know, horror stories. Obviously, I would have written, and um that sort of progressed um you know into adulthood or from my late teens um and sort of through my twenties, while I was still reading um and you know, sort of watching horror and stuff, I wasn't really writing or anything like that because I was you know out working and to be honest, out partying as well at the weekends and sort of running the castle of the fans. But back in uh my 30s, I started um nipping my toe back into the writing thing and um eventually sort of made a bit of progression with it. And you know, um yeah, uh I started off Phantasmagorian nine years ago, shockingly, um, to me. And um, yeah, I'm still writing sort of fiction as well, but I get the time. So I would say as well, um, Northern Irish, a lot of my stuff would actually be Northern Irish Loughcraft fiction. So, you know, that sort of spin, you know, sort of Locraftian tales, maybe sort of, but set in Northern Ireland, which I'm sure I've no doubt it's been done before, but um yeah, uh I would certainly like to sort of keep the Northern Irish um cosmic horror flag flying.
SPEAKER_01Lovely stuff. Dave Carson, I had a I had a signed uh print from Dave Carson that I got, I think because he used to do a lot of stuff for Dagon fanzine. Carl Ford's Dagon fanzine.
SPEAKER_03Oh yes, that's right. That's right. Uh it's Ren Carl um and Dave, they used to do that together. Um Dagon's I actually have some copies of Dagon here. But yes, uh, back when I was a pa I then became a pain pal with Dave and um used to chat to him on the phone and stuff. This was like uh such a badge of honor to me. And I still have all the old letters Dave sent me. And yeah, I mean this was very much my although I was always into sort of horror, fantasy, science fiction. This was my introduction proper to the sort of British sort of literary um genre scene, and yeah, it was great. I haven't looked back, then I'm still in contact with Dave, and yeah, uh Dave contributes to Phantasmagoria, you know, in terms of artwork and stuff. So actually written pieces as well. And obviously, there's um there's a whole circle of people like um Stephen Jones and Les Edwards, uh, you know, who are the guests of honour at the Innsmouth Literary Festival. Um people come on board with um Phantasmogoria, and you know, have guys like that on board, uh especially Stephen with all the gangs he's given me with Phantasmogoria. You know, it's this is the sort of stuff I would have dreamt about as a kid, and it's not I'm not actually doing it, so yeah, it's all good.
SPEAKER_01It's it's something we said a lot because when we go back and look at Lovecraft, one of his positive aspects was he was very encouraging of young writers like Robert Bloch and Frank Belknap Long and all this. And it it seems to be a continuation because we've noticed obviously doing this and doing the ILF and also with with both edited ansologies and stuff, but is the community 99% is very supportive, and everyone's keen to get involved and help you out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but I I I would definitely agree with that. You know, um the support I've been given, you know, throughout the field has been very flattering and and humbling, you know, especially when I look back at some of my um earlier efforts at sort of at Phantasmagoria and fiction. And you know, people people were very supportive and always um very encouraging. Um as I mentioned, Stephen Jones and stuff, but also people like David Sutton, you know, though there are um so so many others, and um it's just great to be part of that scene, you know, that I would have been looked in at as a kid via Dave Carson because he would have sent me he would have sent me publications from these guys and stuff, you know, that he had art in um back in the day. So now to be sort of hanging out, you know, with with um the guys in the scene and also working within it, it's just yeah, it's I mean uh it's something I never would have imagined I would have been good enough to do as a kid, you know, the whole confidence thing growing up in sort of North Belfast, where you're not really those sorts of things, certainly back when I was growing up, weren't encouraged, and uh and I mean not just in the general area, but also the school systems and you know, all the you know, obviously, you know, the schools you had the churches connected or whatever, and you know, certainly a lot of that was best, it would have been it would have been seen as a bit weird or a bit strange, but at worst it would have been actively discouraged, you know, in terms of you know, this is satanic, you're going to burn in hell for all alternatives. Well, I know that now, you know.
SPEAKER_01But that's then I might as well carry on and get the most out of it.
SPEAKER_00I've accepted that I'm fine with that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I'm still gonna do it. It sounds like we're all from similar backgrounds than then, because you know, I think we've all experienced um sort of East London and Tim's Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Certainly back then, I think it might be different now for kids. Um, you know, where the creative arts and stuff is a bit more certainly for young boys. Um, I think it would be possibly a bit more encouraged. But certainly when I was growing up in Belfast, especially this was during the 80s, um, during the height, late 70s, right through the 80s, this was at the height of the troubles as well. So, you know, but but but for me that this sort of stuff was always very much uh a form of escapism from the horrors of the real world, absolutely. And you know what? It still is, yeah, it still is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's something we talk about a lot, isn't it? The real the real mind-blasting horror is every time you turn on the news feed. That's that's the one, right?
SPEAKER_03Exactly. If you want to see um real horror, go outside your front door or you know, switch on the news, or even just an eye, go onto your phone and scroll for five minutes. Uh yeah, that's pure horror, you know. So uh with the other stuff, um that's my escape from it. And and that's what a lot of people don't get, actually. You know, um people who would be opposed to horror and stuff, they they just don't get that patharsis that we would get from reading a story by Lovecraft or Robert E. Howard or something, R M R Times, Clark Einstein Smith or whatever, or even more contemporary writers like say Ramsay Campbell, Adrian Cole, or such, you know. Um, you know, it's escapism. You can forget about all your worries and your your troubles for an hour or whatever, and you just disappear.
SPEAKER_01There is a strange comfort in it because I I grew up, I remember as a kid having like Aurora glow-in-the-dark models of the the classic, you know, Frankenstein, the Wolfman, and all that stuff, and we have bubblegum cards with the photos on. And there's a curious comfort to me, maybe it's like a nostalgia thing of going back to watch those old classic black and white horrors, and then the hammer you mentioned, of course, you know. I'm pretty sure I had a hammer colouring book at one point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Was it Kensington Gore? Possibly, yeah, I can't remember. I just distinctly remember colouring Christopher Lee's face.
SPEAKER_01So I just wonder if did we grow up in the golden age of horror, or is that are we still in it, or is that continuing, or what do you think?
SPEAKER_03I would say um certainly it felt like we we grew up back then in a golden age of horror, you know, sort of sort of the a lot of the stuff we would have watched, and certainly I would have watched in red. It certainly felt like a golden era. I remember you know, mentioned um, you know, um the the hammer horror films, but also remember the anthology series Hammer House of Horror um on TV and um stuff like that. Twilight Zone, Repeats of the Twilight Zone, I would have watched obsessively, and you know, um Pills of the Unexpected Alfred Hitchcock presents, Freddy's Nightmares, you know, they're in another one. Um, there was also a yeah, a Freddy the 13th, I remember, um, anthology series, but wasn't actually connected to Jason Voorhees. So yeah, I mean, certainly I know that um nostalgia could be a very powerful tool, but um looking back, it certainly felt like a golden era to me personally, you know, the late 70s, 80s, or early 90s. Um, but these days, you know, I I I I think now horror has never been as popular. Um yeah, and so I I think there's a very good chance we could maybe um look back at these times and say, yeah, I mean, the this this does feel like a real sort of you know peak time for horror, that sort of thing. Um, you know, because although the studio, the film studios would frown upon horror, they will still happily, you know, put horror films out and stuff. And um also from the literary side of things, you know, horror seems very, very popular and um, you know, when it in its many sort of genres and subgenres and and that sort of thing. But I know that back maybe around the the 90s or so that um horror in terms of literary horror did fall out of favor, um, you know, after that sort of boom in the 80s in the 90s, so a lot of um horror authors had to sort of reinvent themselves as writers of like thrillers or dark fantasy. There were all these sort of like you know, business speaks buzz words to get around it, you know, sort of thing. Um, whereas now horror seems to be a lot more accepted generally and understood and popular um compared to when we were growing up. But I mean, like I say, it that's that felt like a golden era as well, you know, uh back when we were growing up, certainly for nostalgia and personal reasons.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think Graham Masseton's a great example of what you just said about going from horror into like detective stuff. Yeah, because I used to go in and see a Graham Masseton, I'd buy it, and then there was a certain period I went in and went, hang on a minute, police procedural, what the hell?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and Graham is uh is still going strong, and and um he just he's just turned 80 and he's still jumping from horror to crime, and he's written book series very, very prolific. Um, you know, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's interesting what you were saying about the like uh now because I was thinking that when you were saying about the horror films and that, there's been a real uptick in independent horror movies, and they're all doing really well, like that obsession and backrooms and all this kind of stuff. Uh it's great.
SPEAKER_03Uh and it's great, great to see. And first play to these kids who um started off on YouTube. Essentially, I've watched both um um obsession and uh backrooms. Uh, I thought I actually watched Obsession twice and actually found it improved. I mean, I enjoyed it the first time watched it, but I found it even better the second time uh because I noticed there was more sort of um you noticed more of the nuances and essentially what the film is about, which is pretty dark subject matter, but done in this sort of tales from the crypt, sort of quirky, you know, sort of monkey monkey's paw um type of type of way. Um back rooms, I enjoyed back rooms. Uh I did uh being being completely honest, I did feel it went off the boil a little in the second half and was maybe a little overrated, but that's just my personal opinion. And um uh, you know, great to see these guys, these young guys, these kids doing so well. Then we'll have people like um Zach Krieger, um, you know, um where he did weapons last year. Um we also had um sitters as well by Rand Kugler and stuff. So um yeah, it's it's certainly um Oz Perkins, Anthony Perkins' son, he did Long Legs a couple of years ago when I forgot about that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I forgot about that.
SPEAKER_03I didn't really particularly um like his um follow-up, The Monkey, based on the Stephen King story. Oh, I did, I did, I enjoyed it, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I did love long legs, so yeah, there does seem to be this new wave of these young horror directors and um coming through, and it's great to see. And yeah, there's some great stuff um being put out there in cinemas and then obviously on streaming. Um from a literary point of view, um, it does seem like uh a market that is so popular, it is overflooded, you know, especially with the with the advent of you know pet on demand and self-publishing, which is what I do, you know. Same in um, yeah, so you know, so it is there is certainly an immense uh amount of horror material out there. Um catering for all theaters, I would assume, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I think for both of those, technology plays a part, right? Because like you mentioned, self-publishing, and it's it really only the last sort of maybe I'd say six or seven years, self-publishing has become a uh a recognized option. Before that, it was called like vanity publishing, wasn't it? That's right. Or you pay someone a thousand pounds to put your book out, or you you you hawk your book around all the companies for several years and just get rejection after it. And with films now, you can make a film on your phone, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly, exactly, absolutely. Um, but yeah, I think I think self-publishing has certainly become more accepted um as as the years have gone on. I think one of the the big benefits of it that um maybe um sort of mainstream traditional publishers are seeing is that it is so quick and easy to do, and to be honest, quite cheap to do. Certainly, what I do with KDP Amazon, that I mean it doesn't cost me anything at all. And yes, you know, ideally, um I suppose in my own mind I would have always preferred to go through a traditional publisher and stuff, but um, you know, and I did send some of my original stuff out to publishers and was rejected, but you know, that's that that's the way it goes. Yeah, uh, but I think maybe my more my impatience, you know, really wanted to get my my first book out, um, led me to self publish it. Um, so then I didn't really stop doing the whole Amazon KDP thing. And yeah, it has its benefits um in terms of it's very quick and easy, and certainly the quality of of Um the products, you know, in terms of you know printed products that they're doing have improved over the years. Yeah, sometimes they frustrate me, but that's life. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and I think in the 90s I I edited two uh martial arts is like my day job. I edited two martial arts magazines that were both distributed through Smiths and all that kind of stuff. Yes, and comparing that to self-publishing now, uh as you say, we used to print, I can't remember how many copies say like 30,000. And we knew that 18,000 were going to get pulped.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I back um when I first left school at that, I was 17 actually. Um I I my first job was in the printing trade, and my dad was a printer, so I always had that sort of you know, sort of general sort of knowledge of you know, sort of traditional printing and publishing and that sort of thing. Oh right. Um, with a journalist and stuff, but yeah, so things have essentially since the computer and internet age really sort of hit home, things have changed dramatically, essentially from the the the 21st century began. Well what what sort of martial arts were you into?
SPEAKER_01Um Robert? Uh Chinese mostly. So uh I did uh a Tai Chi magazine, Tai Chi International. And then uh we followed that with Tai Chi and Alternative Health, which was more of a a sort of health-based thing.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, no, no, no, no, yeah, no, I did a bit of a sort of dabble that was certainly no uh not in any way um adept at a bit of uh martial arts back when I was younger, right? A bit of um kickboxing and stuff, and uh in recent uh couple of years ago, I had a mate talk me into going to Brazilian jujitsu classes, nice, which I enjoy, but I'm I'm coming 50 in a couple of months. I'm too old for it, too old and too unfit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that'll that'll certainly keep you fit, BJ. Actually, it was martial arts, it was Tai Chi that got me across to Belfast a couple of times. Oh, right, yes. I I don't know if you ever crossed path with um Petey Burns. He was quite big in the punk thing in Belfast in the 70s.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, I'm not too sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but he was a Tai Chi guy as well. So I I I came across to Belfast a couple of times in the 90s to do workshops, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, good. There was Billy Murray as well. Um, he was quite a big name in the local sort of um kickboxing sort of circles around here. Yeah, I think it was one of those ones, um, whenever we were kids, you know, me and my mates who would have watched sort of um martial arts films and stuff, you know, the old Bruce Lee type films and all that sort of thing. And even even things like um the karate kid uh and the Robbie films, automatically every kid in the in the area wanted to be the next day, I don't know, Bruce Lee or whatever, you know.
SPEAKER_01I think in my mind, like that's sort of equivalent with the horror films because I I remember, you know, you had the guy come around with the van with the videos in the back, or you went down the oh yes, it used to be the off license at first before the video shop. Yeah, it was always an offie where it was, yeah. Yeah, you you get maybe Evil Dead and Masters of Shaolin or something. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_03Some really badly dumb, but that was part of the fun, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well no, no, the video shops were. I mean, I I I those were my mecha, um, you know, those video shops, you know. I was never out of them, and there were such there was such a coon with them, you know. Um as well, you had the sort of the dodgy guy up at the top of your street with them in the back of his van as well, you know, all the parrots and you know the yeah, within shore market, within shore market was the one, right?
SPEAKER_00So it was also where you'd go it like uh the day after a big gig because there'd be somebody selling cassettes of it all that taping it, yeah, with your bootlegs and it was great.
SPEAKER_03Those those were the days that was yet another sort of I suppose addiction of mine was videos, yeah. Because um, as I've spoken about before, um I eventually worked out how to um completely illegally uh pirate my own videos back in the day. So I I did I too yeah, I was sort of following them in school to teachers and uh pupils alike, and you know, my mates. And um, I had uh I I there was there were horror magazines, you know, British horror magazines that I was getting contacts um on the back of the classified ads um who were based in England and they were sending me over videos and all sorts, so yeah, because there's been quite a long long tradition of horror magazines.
SPEAKER_01Well, I suppose we can go back to Weird Towers in a way, can't we really? And then and then you come all the way through your monsters of film land and uh fear and fangoria and all those things, yeah. Yeah, so so how did you get into publishing and and was Phantasmagoria going, or was it something you set up yourself?
SPEAKER_03It was no it was something I I set up myself essentially. Um well you just mentioned Fear magazine. Um back um around 2011, 2012, um I received um a message, a private message on Facebook from John Gilbert, the editor of Fear, who told me that um it was um he was going to be bringing it back. Uh would I um like to contribute you know reviews and stuff to it? And I was blown away, I'd never been published before. And so this was my first published um work, um, which was in Fear magazine. So Fear, the rebooted work of Fear, um went on for a few years until about 2016 when it folded again. So I was obviously quite disappointed, and I had the idea, well, maybe I could start up my own magazine, completely um ludicrous, um foolhardy and and um cocky and arrogant and everything, you know.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely um so I did, but it was basically um fancy.
SPEAKER_03Um we still are a fancy technically, um, you know, but I like to think, you know, um, thanks to the guidance of people like Stephen Jones, we've maybe reached the level of um semi-cruising now. But um certainly I I did not know what I was doing in terms of being an editor or laying out a magazine professionally, and um, I was just sort of um blagging it, you know, and and it shows. Um, but I I could never really I would never go back and sort of fix them up or anything because they are what they are, they are a moment in time. And I've had people say to me, which always really sort of I take as a compliment, that with each issue of Phantasmagoria, you can notice a progression of quality, you know, with each issue, you know, gradual progression. And that that that's uh I I would agree with that, um, you know, in terms of myself personally, um, you know, down to guidance and just learning on the job, and um and it it's one of those things where I always will be, you know, there's always something that that that'll need something new that comes along that you know you need to brush up on. So but I love it, and it's it's something that'll always do. And I never imagined that it would be something that I would get the opportunity to do. And um, so yeah, I'm just um enjoying it and sort of um yeah, working away, always working away on a new issue or two or three at the same time. When you first set it up, did you have a particular thing in mind, like it's gonna be this type of magazine or that type of magazine, or oh oh yeah, it it was very much inspired by the um British um public um genre publications of like the 70s, eighties, and um early 90s, um like the aforementioned um fantasy tales, fear and stuff. So I very much had that in mind. Um and the the idea was essentially um to look at um all aspects of horror, fantasy, and science fiction, being honest, particularly horror, you know, horror at the forefront, because I although I'm I'm a fan of science fiction and fantasy, I'm a horror guy ultimately. Um, but um so it was a case of we were going to like interview writers, uh, people from TV and film if if we could, um we sort of did. Um but as long as they were in some way connected uh to horror fantasy science fiction, but also we're gonna run fiction in it as well. Um stuff like you know, poetry, verse, um, reviews, and we were going to cover all aspects. Um you know, hopefully um to as as best of quality as we could. Yeah, there's certainly been mistakes made by myself over the years, over sorry, over the years, and I'm sure there will be future ones, but that's all part of the learning process, you know, and it's about it's about being open to that learning um process and sort of yeah. Um every day's a school day especially with Phantasmagoria.
SPEAKER_01Always something to learn. Well, even just the the software. I'll I'll recently changed some for this book actually. I changed to a new um some publishing software and I was farting around with it, and I managed uh the central character is called Decus. I managed to erase every simple single example of his name in the whole book. Yeah, so it was part of the editing process.
SPEAKER_03I've had to go in and re put while the technology is great, you know, that we have it and stuff and it makes things so easier easy for us. Um there are times when we could be um screaming at our laptop and ready to throw it out the window, you know.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I bet that's how I've spent my morning. I've been I've been mixing a track, I've been nearly nearly went sailing off the balcony earlier. Yeah, Rob, you did you didn't almost do a Monty Python on it and put Biggis before his name.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, I'll I've there's there might be one or two little Easter eggs in there. Oh good, good work, pingist Oh nice, nice infamy, infamy. Yeah, you gotta you gotta throw him in. You got an amazing lineup of contributors, you know, Ramsay Campbell, Brian Lumley, Stephen King. Uh how uh have you I don't want to say easy is not the word, but have you found people again willing to send stuff in and contribute?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, absolutely absolutely, but I think it's a case of where I'm obviously getting a lot of help from those within the field, you know, in the know who maybe know these guys and put the word in for us and stuff like that, which obviously is a big help, but none of that is down to me. Um, but also I think gradually over the last lot of years, we've built up slowly but surely a bit of a reputation. So um, whenever I approach, you know, people um they are more than you know happy to contribute. You know, getting um people like Ram, I remember being absolutely blown away, getting um an interview with Ramsey Campbell back in the very early days, Stephen Jones as well. Um, and also um I remember then I think it was around um I think it was around our issue 15 or so. I remember being approached. Um, I didn't approach him by Graham Masterman and asking me, would I be interested in a story ban? And I was like, you know, I almost put his hand off essentially.
SPEAKER_00Let me think about that. Yeah, yeah, I'll get back to you.
SPEAKER_04You know that's nice.
SPEAKER_03I mean, um, so uh you know, at the end, I I am very grateful of all the help and support I've been given. And uh it really I I wouldn't be um doing it anywhere near as well, or to the quality or to have the the amount of contributors and the standard of contributors that uh we have had, um, if it wasn't for the help and support um, you know, by Steve Jones and others. Um, so yeah, I'm always very, very grateful. Um, and sort of uh I I just get on with it. Uh and you know, one of these guys, you know, you know, to get guys like you know, um, some of the biggest names within the field on board, it's just very flattering. And it's like the schoolboy version of me is just although I tread, I I pretend to be professional on the face of things, you know, uh and sort of almost serious, but um the sort of my inner school boy is you know um cheering.
SPEAKER_01You're nerding out, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00We we've had that a couple of times, and we uh I was gonna say it's like like when we were interviewing Ramsay Campbell at the first Institute Literary Festival. I nearly I nearly had I nearly did that old trick of having a lasty a rubber band on my wrist that I was gonna snap every time I was a fanboy.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I know what you mean. Yes, yeah, and then and then and then but you know what as things have progressed, I've been going to conventions and meeting up with these guys and going out for dinner with them and drinks and stuff, and and so it's like yeah, it's all a it's a bit surreal, but in the in the very best possible way. Um, you know, so yeah, no going back with me, they're stuck with me, whether whether they like it or not.
SPEAKER_01Infiltrate. Yeah, yeah. And you do like regular issues, and but you these these special issues you do always look really good as well.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. Um we started um doing um the special edition series around 2019, um, which is like um well, it it's a series in itself, you know, alongside the regular ones. So we're now up to 10 with a couple of others in the pipeline, um, in terms of the uh special editions, uh but obviously still doing the regular issues as well. But the special editions have um are probably our most popular issues, you know, because they're focused on one particular topic, you know, be that uh a writer like um Arch Edwin Hayes, which was the first one, or you know, VHP Lovecraft or Ramsay Campbell or Carl Edward Wagner or uh Bram Lomley, um, our themes we did a Hellraiser one actually, um, a couple of years ago, which um has gone down very, very well um with um readers um and also fantasy tales. We did um a tribute to fantasy tales with one of our special editions, and our most recent one is our dialects um special, which is a look back at the dialect specifically. I know obviously you're there there's Doctor Who connections there, you know, throughout the you know the issue as well, but it was specifically focused on the dialects, uh actually 60 years since the Peter Cushin dialect movies, uh but we also covered um the dialects in all over all other media, which was quite the job. Um, you know what, once you get down that rabbit hole, um, so I mean there we even there there's even pieces on the dialects in sort of pop music, uh adverse comedy sketches, horn parodies, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I know about all that. I can imagine what the attachments are on the uh on the egg with yeah.
SPEAKER_03So, but again, yeah, so so the special edition series would be um more specific um you know to a particular public, be it a writer, past or present, you know, still with us, or or perhaps past, um, or an actual just a theme like Daleks or you know, Hellraiser or or the like. Um but it but they have really grown. But we also even with our um our regular issues, um, some of those can be themed, where uh like another an overarching theme. For example, our issue 26, the theme, the general theme was Irish horror, because we launched it at EasterCon last year, which was in Belfast. Uh so um uh I'm working right now on an issue with a very big theme that uh may interest you guys, which is well, actually, you know about it already, but it's basically Innsmouth and Love Crab. So um, which we will be launching at the Innsmouth Literary Festival, and um, yeah, so we're really looking forward to that. And I'm currently working on it as we speak, uh and and at the risk of sounding big-headed, the um lineup is top drawer, and um it is cheap enough to be a cracker, thanks to all of the hard work of everyone else. I'm just the sort of tool that puts it all together.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's that's a that's a job in itself as well. No, it is, yeah. And we we mentioned Les Les Edwards, of course. I'm really looking forward to to meeting um at the ILF. Yes, oh Les is lovely. Your your artwork and the and the covers, especially uh outstanding. I mean, there's some amazing artwork there.
SPEAKER_03Oh, oh yeah, and Les is interviewed in this issue, and um also there's a portfolio of his work and front cover, I have to say, as well. So uh it's shaping up to be um something I'm very proud of indeed, you know. But that's not for me to say, that'll be down to the readers and guys like yourselves. So we'll see what happens.
SPEAKER_01Well, the the Innsmouth complaints department is not known for its um yeah you know tolerance. So they're just put that.
SPEAKER_03And you don't want to mess with those insmouth people back to the pitch box against folks again. Oh, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Actually, that that that's an interesting thing because well, we go back to Ramsay Campbell, right? Very famously sent his stories off to August Derleth. And said, Don't set them in Arkham, set them in your local town. That's right, yeah. And it's something I think we all do. We build our own little mythos in the area we're familiar with. So what is is there anything specific about the I I know Ireland is very rich with mythology and lore and supernatural towers. Is there anything specific there that you you sort of tie it into the mythos?
SPEAKER_03Um well not not particularly, you know, sort of tied in. With me, it was more sort of aliasing um Lovecraft's sort of pantheon of sort of elder gods and stuff, um, within just a northern Irish setting. Although certainly nothing there were more they they were more sort of one-off sort of short stories, you know, featuring maybe references to Lovecraft or that type of thing. Certainly nowhere near as elaborate as what um or or as good as what Ramsay Campbell has done with you know Dailoth and his um Richester books and stuff, you know, that sort of thing. Okay. Um but yeah, I I would do that a lot, actually. In fact, one of the reviews of my most recent collection, Bad Dreams and Reflections from Dark Out Publishing, um the best review I got of it actually was a guy said that um essentially that the best thing about my story was how that I uh brought the classics of the horror genre, including Lovecraft, and set them in his words seamlessly within a Northern Irish context. So there's obviously there's also like you know classic sort of vampire and werewolf stories and stuff. Um I'll actually bring some copies of the collection to the Insight Literary Festival if anyone is interested. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was a big that meant a lot to me, that review, you know, that guy saying that. Um, because that was always my sort of intention for you know for you know how successful I I have been at it. It's not for me to say, but um yeah, so and obviously I know Northern Ireland and Ireland very well, so it's it's a safe bet for me, you know.
SPEAKER_01It's right what you know, right? Sometimes you can capture the atmosphere of where you grow up much better than than someone else could, perhaps. It it's always like when you read stories set in England by an American author. And sometimes they work, but sometimes you know, you got the guy on the sidewalk. Yes, you know, and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_03Well, one of one of the most um um more negative reviews I got of my work was by, I believe, a Canadian reviewer, and uh it was about one of my stories, which was actually released as a short sharp shock or Dominion um publishing D named Drinkell, and the story was called Crown of Thorns. Um and the the story um uh is set in um 1980s in Belfast, and it it's about two young lads, but the dialogue, um I believe, um, was very authentic to how young lads spoke in Belfast back at that era because I was what I was a young lad back then, and this Canadian guy just did not get it. Um and he which is fair enough, he said he quite enjoyed the story, but the dialogue um sort of alienated him in terms of people saying, I mean, what what is this guy? What is this guy trying to do? Is he trying is trying to be a clockwork orange or whatever, you know, with the you know the dial, you know, the dialogue. Um he just didn't really get the slang and the slang references, which is fair enough.
SPEAKER_01It's a tough one, isn't it? Because you don't want to make everyone generic sort of mid-Atlantic fan. I know you've had that a lot, Tim, haven't you?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah, because I've worked with a lot with um American publishers and uh the there's one that's always stuck in my head is the probably the biggest argument I've ever had with an editor because they they came in and they basically Americanized everything. Though the spellings that know that, that's fine. But this was set in sort of Jack the Ripper's London, right? This was set in Whitechapel in like eighteen eighty eight. So it's all peelers and all the rest of it, right? And um the the one that The argument was centered around the word ass, they changed it to ass. And I was like, people didn't say that in Victorian London. Exactly, Victorian London, right? You've got a Bobby saying shift your ass or I'll give you a slap. It doesn't work, it will shift your donkey.
SPEAKER_03What it makes no sense, you know. Uh no, exactly. It would be like having Jack Ripper speak like he's from New York, call people a schmuck or whatever, you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. This is what we're trying to get through to them. Eventually, they saw my point.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. I always forget because I I watched it again recently, the third first Mad Max film where they've dubbed Mel into American. Oh yeah, and when you see that in the original, the original is way better.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, oh yeah. Um I um I I I do a podcast um with a guy, film review podcast, and we recently um did a Mad Max um retrospective all films in the series, and yeah, I I find the third one, the more Americanized one, um, you know, with Tina Turner and stuff, actually to be the weakest. Um, so the and the the first two are by far the best, um, in my head, anyway, you know, because they have that sort of raw ausproitation sort of feel to them and they're gritty, and you know, the Lord humongous and stuff.
SPEAKER_01It feels to me, well, that first one has has the feeling of like um the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre, you know, it's but the film itself is very grainy and and almost home movie kind of feel, you know.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, and I think that's the way George Miller essentially I mean, it was made on a very small budget, and it was basically um like sort of commando filmmaking, you know, they didn't have permits to do these cases, so they were basically quick, get this get the shot, and then we'll you know sort of run off before the police come or whatever. Um no, no, I love it. Um, you know, that you know, especially the first two. I think I think the third one's okay when they're in border town, but then when I we'll get all these Disney kids, Disney type kids and stuff, you know, when it's like Lord of the Flies, but done by Disney with um Mad Max in it, it just it's sort of it lost me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, not the same. Uh see the the Tom Hardy one wasn't bad. I quite enjoyed that.
SPEAKER_03I I I liked it a lot. Um, yeah, I thought it was equal. Actually, Furiosa, the most recent um sort of one I really I really liked as well, but I bombed at the box office. Obviously, Mad Max isn't um in it, although it's set in that universe, but um, there is a very well, there is like a very small cameo by Mad Max, but um um uh but but no the the first two will all I mean I remember I end back to the video gaze watching those in video and loving them, you know, being a mate.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. Do you find as an editor uh I Tim, this is something we've spoken about before, does it spoil reading for you in that when you start reading something, you can't help but go into editor mode sometimes?
SPEAKER_03Oh 100%, absolutely. Yeah, you know, um, you know, oh definitely generally in terms of editing, you know, stories, you know, I generally wouldn't touch content like you were talking about, Tim, where they wanted to change or staff, I generally let the stories be. Uh or if there is some major issue, I will consult you know with the writer or whatever. So generally, I'm just um editing for things like you know, typos or or for just formatting and stuff like that. So um, because because I I'm so busy, these especially yeah, you know, if you get a story by someone like Ramsay Campbell or whatever, or Graham Master, I'm not gonna touch that anyway. Um who am I, you know? Yeah, um, so I'm uh um yeah, but but so generally I'm just essentially formatting and sort of looking out for typos and um you know putting things into the the house style of Phantasmagoria. So um because I'm so busy these days, what I find um just to basically save time is I will uh and it's like an automatic sort of thing I sort of do anyway, I will basically um be editing a submission in my head at the very least, as I am reading it. So it's just it's almost like it's but because I do a lot of reviewing as well and have you know over the years have reviewed so many books and um films and you know TV shows and stuff. I now also for actually quite a lot of years now, I um can't watch anything or or read a book in any description without in my head going into review mode. You know, so that's not me saying I'm sort of um some big critics or whatever, you know, it's just because I've been doing it for so long, I I can't read a book now. You know, obviously you know the books and the films, they are for enjoyment's sake, but at the same time, I cannot what um watch anything or read anything now um for the last lot of years without reviewing it in my head at the very least.
SPEAKER_01It's a difficult thing, I know it is a difficult thing. Yeah. And um what what is it that this might be a bit of a difficult one to answer, but what what is it that draws you into a story or a film? I I guess it could be several different things. Well let's put it another way, what would be some of your favorite stories or films? What it what is it about them that draws you in?
SPEAKER_03Um, you know, and where there is, I suppose it goes back to the classic storytelling tropes of a character's journey. Um good and relatable characters, you know, from whatever background they might be, but also that that you know that uh from the start of the film um or the book or whatever it is, by the end, this character who you have spent all of this time with has changed, maybe for the good or the bad, you know. So and you have gone on this journey with them, and expecting the classic, you know, storytelling tropes, but also a good story, uh, obviously, as well. Um, you know, that is obviously a big thing. Um, where you know, obviously there is the argument that every sort of story has already been told, you know, ultimately, you know, a never-ending amount of times. Um, but it's about putting and you know, including with horror and you know science fiction or whatever, but it it's about being surprised basically, and you know, a writer putting a good twist on you know a tail or a trope or whatever, and surprising you. It's all about being surprised and um shocking um the um the reader or the audience member, you know, the the viewer or whatever, give us something different, you know, something completely original. A lot of I think a lot of the stuff now uh in terms of um films in the mainstream is just recycled, predictable rubbish, you know.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03It's uh particularly all of this um superhero stuff that we've been numbered with over the last nine years. It's just oh it is so played out, but it's almost like every every film you you you can before going into it without even reading any spoilers, you can protect every dramatic beat and everything that is going to happen in it um already. And it's just uh I think it was Martin Scorsese said that they're not real cinema, they are um basically theme park rights, and a lot of people have criticized criticized him for that, you know, with these big budget uh mainstream things, you know, CDI face. A lot of people have said that he has come across as snobby, but I have to admit I agree with him.
SPEAKER_01We've spoken about a lot, especially like the as I was saying, that Doctor Strange film that yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I was very disappointed with that. I was actually disappointed with Sam Raimi, yeah. And I'm a I'm a huge Sam Raimi fan, but I felt that was one instance where he pulled out to Disney and Marvel.
SPEAKER_01On paper, it's got tentacles in it, it's got magic, it's got it should have been great. And you can't fault how it looks and the effects, yeah. But they they leave us flat, you know.
SPEAKER_03This is a hundred percent. This is the thing, this is the problem. These things they feel soulless and they feel so corporatized and so overproduced that um, you know, when runs through committees and studio notes and all sorts, it it it it it removes the soul from them. There's no real there's no real vision there, you can tell it, there's no real singular vision there. This is movie making by committee, and it shows it it's corporate movie making, and it 100% shows. Whereas as we were talking about earlier, you look at the original two Mad Max films, um, and you can feel George Miller's vision and all its rawness and vividness, and it's exciting, and you're on board and you're living it. But these days you just come away from so much of this stuff feeling numb. But at the same time, so much as we were discussing earlier with um obsession and backrooms, yeah. You know, it's not all bad because uh there is so much independent stuff out there as well that um is um really doing great, and people are fluffing to see them because people, the general public, even um you know, people who wouldn't maybe be like ourselves horror obsessives or whatever, the general public are are rushing out to see these things too. Word of mouth is a powerful tool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I I mean, like traditionally, I mean there are a couple of exceptions, but traditionally, the Lovecraftian cosmic horror sort of genre has never been served that well by cinema until like it's got in the hands of the independents, like Ben the Benson and Moorhead movies because they can do stuff that none of these big money studios would dare to touch. This is their they've got this connected universe, all this weird stuff going on, and all the films are interlinked, and it's all like it's cerebral, yes. Whereas, like you're saying about like the Doctor Strange thing, I watched it, I cut I ten minutes later, I'd forgotten about half of it.
SPEAKER_01Can't remember anything about it, yeah. Totally.
SPEAKER_03This is the issue, you know. They become sort of just um it's almost like watching someone else play a computer game.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's that's exactly it, that's exactly it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. We're we're it's just a CGI face, and uh I I get the CGI is necessary in today's filmmaking for things like um certainly science fiction and fantasy, but I do have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to CGI in horror. Um yeah, now I I watched the recent Evil Dead film, um, this evil Evil Dead Burn, and I have quite a lot of issues with it. Um so do so do I. Yeah, it wasn't. I think it worked okay. It works okay as a ballsy sort of French extremist war fest, but it's not really an Evil Dead film, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_03My big problem I had with it as well was the use of bad CGI um during the finale, you know, with this abusive husband character who comes back from the dead as a CGI monster. It just didn't fit with that particular film, but also with the evil dead overall. I I get that sometimes with horror films these days, I think the best way to do it is maybe use practical, but maybe tweak it a little bit with CGI, which is I think is fine. But whenever it's just a CGI monster, it takes you out of it, it takes you out of the drama, the the threat, and all sorts, you know, and it it just um it doesn't work for me personally.
SPEAKER_01And I I I think for me, horror works best when it's understated and it's that uncanny value thing. I was thinking of something like um um Possum with Matthew Holness, yes, which has basically got uh a sort of ventriloquist dummy with big long spider legs in a bag. Yes, yeah, I've seen it. And that's it, and that's one of the creepiest things I've seen for ages.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's all about suggestion. Leg club, you know, love crap within a story, you know. So much of it was uh it's about suggestion, and certainly with Ramsay Campbell, MRGMs and stuff, yeah. Certainly, um, you know, the the you know, I don't know what's a cliche, but the most terrifying stuff is the stuff we don't see because our man fills in the blanks, you know, which is which is so much more effective than some CGI sort of mess, you know. Um, you know, you know, yeah. And at the same time, I've gotta be honest, you can't beat a man on a monster suit.
SPEAKER_01Well, I d I don't know because we're we're laughing because we're uh almost every issue we we mentioned the mezzo tint. The Mark Gatus one, yeah, which was great up until the point where they showed the thing coming over the window. We we both sing uh black.
SPEAKER_03I sort of I think after that one I sort of checked out of Mark Gatus's um book stories for Christmas, and I think the last couple of Christmases I just watched the re-watched, you know, the old um Lawrence Gordon Clark ones from the 70s. Again, a fine another fine example of suggestion and atmosphere and actual you know haunting sort of imagery and all that sort of thing, but but restrained at the same time, and you know, I mean, and it's such a uh uh a skill that you know the guys like that, you know, sort of honed, and that was great. I mean, maybe it was doing a bit of lack of budget as well and stuff, but these days, yeah. Yeah, I I I wasn't really a fan of Jadis' um Count Magnus either. Oh no, that's one of the worst ones, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they missed half the story, yeah. The whole thing on the boat and all that stuff, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and there was a bit too much focus on comedy as well, the same as his recent Dracula with um Stephen Moffat, where it um but but with the it felt like carry on MRGMs that I didn't want to see, and I don't want to see carry on MRGMs.
SPEAKER_02I like the carry-on films, but keep keep them away from MRGMs.
SPEAKER_01I was listening to a podcast the other day, and I won't mention it. I I was having a rant to Tim about this the other week. And um, they're reviewing horror films, and one guy is fine, and the other guy just hates everything, right? I don't know why he bothers watching stuff, yeah. And um, and the guy brought up carry on screaming, and and the other bloke said, Well, that was a load of rubbish, what a load of nonsense. I just thought, mate, you're dead to me. Yeah, yeah, that's it. If you don't like carry on screaming, you can just fuck off.
SPEAKER_03You you have to sort of, you know, you have to get it and take it for what it is. It's a 1960s ready sex comedy series, you know what I'm saying? And it's meant to be, it's not meant to be high-brown, you know what I mean. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02It's Kenneth Williams going, Oh matron, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's yeah, it's strange. But having said that, I mean something else we often talk about is that the horror comedy link and Lovecraft had a lot more humor than than he was given credit for, I think.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, yeah, that's true. And I think there um I remember um reading somewhere recently, actually, um, where someone um you know compared the the um you know how close horror is to comedy from a technical point of view, in that um with both horror and comedy, there is a punchline. Yes, and that but but with horror it is the um it is the scur, you know, the the monster jumping out and chasing the person. That's the sort of punchline. I don't mean in a in a funny way, you know, unless it's carry on screaming, you know. But uh uh but but but but but it's the same sort of technical setup with a joke, whereas it's there's a build-up, it's to do with the building up and the building up and then the punchline, you know, where you get the big laugh. So certainly from a technical point of view, there is that, you know, sort of there are similarities between horror and comedy, and you know it can be a fine line, you know. Um and I'm a fan, certainly a fan of horror comedies, but it can it's something that can be can be um there is a certain knack to um doing horror comedy as well, which Sam Raimi, I must say, um, completely nailed with you know the evil deads. Um whereas that most recent one, there are attempts at comedy, um, you know, with the the grandmother character and stuff, but they just don't pull it off. In my opinion, it you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's something it's something we I moderated a panel with um with Charles Stross on it about horror comedy at one of the Insmouth Literary Festivals, because he gets that balance very well. And it's something I a lot of mine it is comedic, or there's comedic bits in elements, yeah. Because yeah, it's great to use comedy as a counterpoint so you you get the reader to relax, and then a bit of levity, yeah, a bit of levity, and so then the the hard the the horror bits hit harder. That's kind of how I've always tried to use it, and it's interesting what you were just saying. That's exactly what Charles Stross was saying on the on this panel.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, and I I don't what with my my own sort of um my own fiction, um, I have sort of jumped from deadly serious grim horror, probably too grim. Actually, looking back at some of my earlier stuff, it was more of a reflection of where I was at the time in my own life in my head. It was leading on a page basically. Um so I I I but then I'm sort of um one of my stories would be you know, sort of heavy, grim, very serious horror. Then the next one will be this absurdist horror comedy type thing. So there's definitely uh I don't know if it's a conflict, but there's yeah, I like to jump between the two. Yeah, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think we see that even if you go back, well, people like Poe or or Clark Ashton Smith, we do a podcast on Smith and so there's that ironic, sardonic humor.
SPEAKER_03Oh, absolutely. Ramsey Campbell stuff, oh, I find very dark, yeah, very darkly humorous, and you know, it's it's almost like these they're like um comedies of manners, you know, with the awkward family conversations and the awkward family dynamics and stuff. Um, some of Ramsey's stuff is while pretty paraffan and you know, dark and all of the rest, but in the same novel, there'll be moments of you know, laugh out loud, comedy and stuff, you know, with the farcical situations with families where somebody's misunderstood what somebody said, yeah, and they've taken it the wrong way they've taken it the wrong way. And Ramsey's a master at that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, yeah, yeah. This might sound quite grim, but I think it's something that this is sort of real life horror in a way. It was a war thing I was reading, but it typifies that gallows humour that comes out in those situations about they were moving this guy who'd got hit, and the line was, oh, we knew he was dead because his head fell off. It's kind of it's horrible, but it's funny as well.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I think that that's one of the great things about even sort of I think that's how we survive in the real world, essentially. Yeah, yeah. Um, with with with with with with humor and sort of dark humor, you know, where we can sort of where something maybe horrible has happened, or even at a funeral, or the gallows humor, like you say, uh, I think that sort of it keeps us sort of grounded, you know, and and sort of keep keeps us seeing, to be honest, you know. Yeah, I think we need that. It's a it's a it's it's obviously it's a fine balance. You don't want to be sort of uh being being inappropriate uh in the wrong situation. Um, but yeah, there's a certainly um with the with the laughs, and certainly you know, goes back to the horror comedy sort of thing, there is that levity, you know, and it's sort of but also in the real world.
SPEAKER_01And I think one thing that points to is uh that we well, we say this about pulp fiction in general, but horror as well. There's a lot more depth to it than it's generally given credit for. And and I think there's there's a very broad range of types of horror as well. You know, we can talk weird horror, cosmic horror, body horror, all the rest of it. And you can put as many of those as you like into one film or story, or it can be just one of them. It it seems quite unique to me, horror in that way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it is, you know, um it is a genre where you can do anything, you know, essentially. You know, um, you know, we the the the the the limits are are boundless. You can do, you know, you can go do whatever you want with it, essentially.
SPEAKER_00That's one thing I like doing is I'll go, oh, I've never set one in a post office or you know, or down the DHSS or somewhere.
SPEAKER_01I worked there for a while. I'll tell you some horror stories about the DHS.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. And I think um one of the reasons I I aside from coming from Belfast, but what one of the other reasons I um would set so many of my stories in and my horror stories in Belfast because growing up, every horror story or horror novel or horror film I watched all set in either England or America, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we were starved, you know.
SPEAKER_01There's something about that, and I think things hit home hard. When it goes to your roots, doesn't it? Growing up in London, it was just Jack the Ripper constantly, you know. And the Cray twins. Of course. Everyone's granddad saw Jack the Ripper.
SPEAKER_03Jack of the River. Yeah. Jack the Ripper saying ass instead of horse. You're damn schmuck.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, exactly. I know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Make my day, you bounder. I don't know. I we're back to that thing again of mainstream, and it seems to be like a fear that mainstream they have to show everything mainstream. Anything that deviates from that, they they get worried about it. People aren't going to understand it or they're not going to like it.
SPEAKER_03I think I think that's um almost insulting to their readers, you know what I mean? People, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's almost like a lot of these films coming out today where it feels like um the writers in the studios think that their audience are stupid. Um but they don't give their audiences, including kids, um, the credit that they deserve. People aren't stupid, and people can tell when something is recycled crap or or whatever, or just you know, generic rubbish or whatever. Um, you know, people are a lot more clever than they seem to think we are, you know.
SPEAKER_01No, uh it was something actually two stories I heard. One was uh Police Squad, the series Police Squad with Leslie Nielsen. Oh yeah, nothing which you can watch over and over again, right, and see so many little things. And apparently it was cancelled because the humour was too clever, you know, there was too much going on for people to take in according to the studio.
SPEAKER_03But but but it it grew into a cult, yeah, it was only ever six episodes made, but it grew over the years into a sort of um cult classic. And I remember watching it as a kid and thinking it was great, hilarious, and then obviously the they made the the naked gun films, you know, based on detective Frank Drevan. Leslie, Leslie Nexon, of course, um started off as a straight actor, yeah. Um Forbidden Planet, yeah, of course, yeah. And and also Creep Show as well. Um go back to horror.
SPEAKER_01Was it the beach one? I forgot about it. Yes, yes, yes, yes, he does it was with with with Tanson.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, wow, I've forgotten about that. It's amazing when you see it because a lot of comic actors when they flip that switch and go, because a lot of them end up doing horror movies, and they're usually the killer, and when they do it, they are absolutely terrifying. I mean, a great example is Robin Williams in one hour photo, right? I mean, yeah Christ, things like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um and maybe and maybe it goes back again to the comedy horror alignment, you know, that sort of thing, you know. Um, yeah, oh no, no, totally, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, as is customary, uh before we leave, well, there's a couple of things. One is we like to ask our guests their favorite Lovecraft story or adaptation or film, and and also, I mean, because you're so well versed in horror, your your favorite non-Lovecraftian film or story as well would be interesting to know. Uh that's that's the first one. We'll we'll get on to the second, slightly less pleasant task after. Right, okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um right. Well, I have just um read and put into this upcoming issue of Phantasmagoria. Um, I don't want to give too much away, but an absolutely fantastic um Lovecraftian story by the aforementioned Ramsay Campbell.
SPEAKER_01Nice.
SPEAKER_03So, yeah, and it is absolutely and it is genuinely unsettling. Um, yeah. Um, so that's certainly one of the I mean all of the fiction in this issue will be Lovecraftian. Um, but that's it, this is great Lovecraftian fiction. But yes, I have just um just last week read and sort of formatted into the magazine an absolute cracker from Ramsay Campbell, genuinely unsettling and totally um captures that Lovecraftian sense of the sort of otherworldly, you know, the the unknown, that sort of thing. Um regarding my favorite Lovecraft stories, uh it's there's obviously a few. Um maybe At the Mountains of Madness will be one of my favorites. Um The Outsider. Um I remember when I first read that um, you know, as a kid, um being blown away by the twist, you know, at the end. Um was always stuck with me. Um you know, other ones as well, the colour out of space. You know, obviously there are you know classics like you know, obviously The Shadow Over Innsmouth, which I recently reread um you know, for for this upcoming issue, um, along with a lot of a load of other um Lovecraft and fiction. Um, you know, it really sort of um hits the mark, you know. And Shadow Over Innsmouth, it's been interpreted in in you know in various ways by various people, you know, what it's really about. But um Liz Edwards um pointed out, and maybe this has been said before, um it may be about syphilis, you know, the whole insmouth look could be. I just thought that was a really sort of clever take on it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have read I have read that somewhere. I've read that. Because of his father. Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I thought that was quite a certainly from my point of view, quite um different look at it. Um you know, um, a read day one when I was very young and sort of it always stuck out um in my mind. Um but regarding Lovecraft and films, um as a kid of the sort of video era in the 80s, I always really liked um brilliant. It's brilliant. Yeah. Um yeah, at the Mouth of Madness, another one. Um who recently uh yeah, just just passed a couple um a couple of weeks ago. Uh regarding other films with a Lovecraft influence. Um I'm a big fan of Lucio Fucci's Gates of Hell trilogy. Um, you know, the The Beyond and City of the Living Dead and House The House by the Cemetery. Um they're not you know direct adaptations. Uh I did watch one recently, a Ukrainian film called Dark Waters, from around 1992. And it's essentially a um it's basically Innsmouth, but with an Italian island, but it's a Ukrainian film made around 1992. After now, it's not a direct um adaptation, but it is um it's pretty much an insmouth story, um, essentially. Yeah. Um, you know, sort of uh certainly heavily influenced by sort of insmouth and love craft. Uh I would recommend that it's about this sort of basically a cult of sort of nuns who worship this sort of uh elder god on this island off of Italy. But um Dark Waters, it's called it's very interesting, and there is a sort of they're sort of capturing a certain sort of cosmic feel to it as well, um, at parts. Um, but yeah, so that would have been made in the Ukraine probably around a time just before the fall of the Soviet Union. So uh I think it's interesting from a um a sort of a cinema history point of view as well, you know. I think Mark Kermod had to try to watch it or something, or try to get seen or something. There were some issues or something. I can't remember. I remember seeing something that the Kermod um had problems trying to access it in some way back then. But uh yeah, so that'll be one worth checking out. Um, but yeah, I I you know you can't go wrong with Reanimator either.
SPEAKER_02No, I don't craft himself would have uh approved of it, you know, in the old sort of but certainly not some scenes he would certainly be one of my favourites, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, again, there's that blend of comedy and horror. That's a perfect example, isn't it? That really yeah it it is yeah yeah black who's gonna listen to a talking head yeah okay, and as I said, there is another task as well. You you may have wondered what that object slowly pulsing in the corner is over there. Yeah, yes, that uh sir is Dagon's sack. Uh it's it's our mailbag. And we were wondering if you if you if you would do us the dubious honor of dipping your hand into Dagon's sack and pulling out a few missives for us to read.
SPEAKER_02This feels like Harry on Willcraft.
SPEAKER_01I'm sticking my hand into Dagon's sack. There you go. Oh and uh yeah, we have uh we've had a few letters in about our last episode where we covered cool air. And on the Innsmouth Forum, we had a message from our friend Nils over in California. And this was about we we mentioned Lovecraft's time in New York and speculated there there was this idea that Sonia Green actually dated Alistair Crowley at one point, which was shown to be pretty false, but you know, it was an interesting idea. Well, Niels writes While Sonia Green may not have known Crowley, one of his paramours is of note. Amy Crocker had a long affair with Crowley from the first paragraph of her wiki of her wiki article. Amy Isabel Crocker was an American mystic bohemian author and member of the wealthy Crocker family. She was known for her cultural exploration of the Far East, for her extravagant parties in San Francisco, New York, and Paris, and her collection of husbands and lovers, adopted children, Buddhas, pearls, tattoos, and snakes. Sounds like uh quite a woman to me. Uh she was the daughter of Edwin B. Crocker, who was a brother of one of the big four California railroad robber barons. Edward Edwin Crocker was also the founder of the Crocker Art Museum, the oldest art museum west of the Mississippi. And to bring it back around, Clark Ashton Smith had sculptures shown at the Crocker in 1942 as part of a show of Northern Californian artists. Nice. Well, it's a link, fairly tenuous, but it's a link nonetheless. Thank you for that, Niels. I'm interested in this lady now. I'm gonna find out more about her. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sounds like an interesting woman. Snakes and all that. Yeah, I'll come, I can dig that. Right, our next one comes from Alter. Gentlemen, I recently touched upon this same topic while writing to my Welsh pen pal. I had already been mulling this over for a few years, but your episode and Cool Air crystallized the thoughts I'd had in my head for so long. Below is an excerpt from the letter. In the latest episode of the Innsmouth Book Club, our two tweed clad gentlemen tackled Cool Air, one of those stories penned by the master that falls outside the mythos. Along with two other tales, it forms, in my view, a sort of trilogy centered on the theme of immortality. It's fascinating to observe the varied approaches the reclusive Providence took towards this subject. In Herbert West Reanimator, immortality is achieved through the creation of a special serum, the result of much trial and error. Cool Air presents a singular instance of immortality, again science-based, yet far more vulnerable to external factors. The third story is somewhat more problematic for me to recall, for the life of me. I cannot remember its title. It may well have been one of the collaborations with August Derlith. It involved someone splicing their DNA with that of reptiles or something to that effect. Though I haven't read the story in fifteen or twenty years, so my memory is rather unreliable on that point. Three versions of Infinity, each linked to science rather than the Cthulhu mythos, and in every instance the attempt failed. It is characteristic of Lovecraft that any endeavour to prolong life ends in catastrophe. His philosophy shines through cleanly here, man is by no means exceptional, and his life does not merit extension for any reason whatsoever. One could argue that the case of Charles Dexter Ward also fits category, yet we must remember that Joseph Kerwin took over his descendant's body, much like Ephraim Waite in the thing on the doorstep. Thus we are dealing with only three instances where Lovecraft grappled with human immortality in his writings. Of course, one could also examine this through the lens of a Lovecraftian Frankenstein, but that's a topic for a completely different discussion. We see then that for Lovecraft, such unbroken immortality is attainable only through science.
SPEAKER_01Try and get immortality through a pact with demons or Satan or something. Um with Lovecraft Lovecraft is science. It rings a bell. It's not reducer coil, is it? Possibly. Possibly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I've definitely read it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It might be one of the ones he one of the revision stories, the ones he ghost wrote. I think it might be one of those.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I can remember reading it in one of those old I had a secondhand copy. I bought a second-hand copy of the old Arkham edition of you know Love Crap Stories. And but as soon as he he um, you know, you mentioned about the the the splicing of the reptile um sort of DNA type thing, it sort of, yeah. I just didn't even think what what its name was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely rings a bell. We should we shall look that up, we shall investigate. And finally, our old friend Tobias writes, it's been quite a while since you discussed the Grand Party of all original, and I must say I very much enjoyed it. Of course, I've read the story, seen at least some of the adaptations, and heard several podcasts discuss the story already. But what's fun is to hear your take on it. The warmth, the humour, just your specific point of view, that's what makes the difference. Of course, I'm not hoping for more troubles with missing guests, but I would love to hear you discuss more of H. Pie L's stories. Cheers to the both of you, and I hope you have another lovely moist festival. Thank you, Tobias. Yes, we can guarantee moistness at Innsmouth, it's the one guarantee.
SPEAKER_00Oddly moist.
SPEAKER_01Well, Trevor, thanks very much for coming in today and visiting Innsmouth. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for inviting me. It's always great to be here in Innsmouth.
SPEAKER_01Now, you do get to stay over because uh we take our visitors away, but you you get to sample the delights of uh a night at the Gilman Hotel, uh, all necessary precautions. Yeah, I'm sure you know what to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, trust me, I've stayed in worse places.
SPEAKER_00I think I think as gigging musicians, we're both don't look under the bath still still wake up in cold sweats about some of them knocking shops ended up staying in around King's Cross.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Where's the best place online for people to find you, Trevor?
SPEAKER_03Um, usually on Facebook or um, there's a Phantasmagoria website as well. But um you can people can add me on Facebook um or follow me on Facebook, um Trevor Kennedy. Um yeah, you'll probably see a photo of me with a copy of Phantasmagoria or some related book or such. Um Phantasmagoria website as well. We'll have um where you can order directly um our issues or spin-off books and such. Um, also Forbidden Planet locally in Belfast. Um, but you can also catch me on um Instagram as well, or find me an email.
SPEAKER_01Excellent, excellent. We'll put as many links as we can up in our show notes below. And yeah, do take a look. Phantasm Magoria magazine.
SPEAKER_03Of course, available worldwide from Amazon as well. Brilliant, thank you, sir. Thank you very much for inviting inviting me on, guys. Really appreciate it. My pleasure.
SPEAKER_01Mr. Sgt. is pulling up in the bus outside. It's time for us to take our leave. Thanks very much for joining us today, folks. Just a quick reminder: if you'd like to support the show, do take check out our Patreon page. When you sign up as a patron, you get access to bonus content for the Innsmouth Book Club and Strange Shadows, our Clark Ashton Smith podcast. You'll get a quarterly copy of Innsmouth News at PDF. Summer edition is on the way. And of course, you get free entry to events such as the Innsmouth Literary Festival. See you next time. It's a goodbye from me, Rob Hoyton. And it's a goodbye from me, Tim Mendy's.
SPEAKER_00I nearly forgotten her name.